BSG, TVD, HAVEN, SPN: angst and payoff.
Oct. 1st, 2012 10:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
x5valeHappy Birtdhay to ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
jaelle85, ewanmax and herowlness!!!
-HAPPY MONDAY you all, hope you had a nice weekend. We went to the movies yesterday and Gaia watche her first one on the big screen. It was the Ice Age 4 and she really enjoyed it. She said she loved it and want to go again :)
-This week is the SPN week, yay!!! Though Jared last words on Sam pissed me off, I am excited and happy to see Dean again. I can't wait.
-I had a long and interesting twitter chat withleelust and ann_tara about Haven and tv shows in general. They asked me to post my thoughts and this is what you'll find under the last cut.
First, some links forann_tara and leelust about Haven spoilers and the cast interviews.
The Three Amigos – Haven’s Emily Rose, Lucas Bryant & Eric Balfour
In this one you'll find how the relationship between Nathan and Duke should get more interesting and that Nathan&Audrey match up will satisfy the fans.
Lucas Bryant about S3
He said that Nathan is determined to keep Audrey in his life.
"Lucas Bryant".
This is older, before the finale last year but he addressed the N/A relationship for S3. He said there will be roadblocks and speed-bump (looks like TVD!)
Since this is also a Haven post, some thoughts about the second episode.
-I liked the storyline. I loved Cookie. I adored Nathan with Cookie;)
-The psychiatric is nice and I want to see more of her.
-I want Nathan and Duke to be BBF, but I get why Nathan doesn't trust him. He's been bullied and betrayed too many times by Duke in the past to trust him so easily. Also Nathan is jealous, so I think it will take a while for the two of them to become friends again.
-I want to know who the Hunter is.
-I don't trust Dwight. Not completly.
-Audrey you have to tell Nathan the truth. No secrets. He's the one you trust the most. He is your friend. You are going to pull away from him to protect him, but you will break him nonetheless, so please...don't do this.
I don't know if my cuople will end up together because I see a lot of angst coming. Obviously the stakes are too high and there might not be room for a romance right now, but they have been building up this relationship for 2 years and I don't think they are going to waste it. They are not going to sink my ship. NO way.
Let's say some words spoken by Lucas and Emily and the lyirics of the song played at the end (A Soft Place to Land), make me stay positive.
Long long post under the cut...
Premise: I'm not good at the meta thing. I'm not good at writing down why I like something. I'd rather talk about it but sometimes written words fail me, so bear me :)
My favorite genre on TV has to be sci-fi. I think it requires an extra effort to make a show work and let us be carried away by our imagination. It's also a way to talk about the reality without being in the real world.
Of course to get me hooked up, a show must have a good cast, well developed characters and storylines and has to balance the singe sl with the main arc.
What really makes me fall and feel for a show, in the sense that I feel the urge to watch it and can't wait a whole week, is the constant battle between angst and payoff.
What's Angst for me? It's that deep emotion that combines the unbearable angush of life with the hopes of overcoming this seemingly impossible situation (Urban Dictionary).
It's the internal turmoil of a character that you can find in every action, every word, every relationship this character lives.
I'm not interested in happy endings, I am interested in the journey the characters make to get their payoff.
There must be payoff. If a well developed character spend all his life in pain and suffering and he doesn't have a payoff, the whole journey would not make sense.
Let me explain this better with some examples.
Battlestar Galactica.
I still think it was one of the best show ever, so I am pretty content with how they wrote it.
As a shipper, my heart was broken multiple times and the end cancelled every hopes for Lee and Kara to be together. I was seeing that coming. I never had the feeling they would have been together because they didn't fight enough. They were stuck, trapped and they failed themselves as a couple. So where's the payoff? They didn't fail themselves as people. They both accomplished something. Kara led them to safety. Lee was able to have a fresh start and be whoever he wanted to be. As characters they got their payoff. They had a purpose and they didn't fail it.
The Vampire Diaries
Damon is angst, in everything he does, says, feels. Angst is a state of mind for him. This comes out especially in the relationship with the two people he loves the most: his brother and Elena. Damon's angst is strictly connected to his way of loving. He loves with intensity and desperation. All this love is not even always recognized from some of the characters, who still consider him as a selfish, bad guy. But you can see the angst also in this because Damon wants to be considered that way, so he doesn't have to live up to anyone's expectations. Damon is torn. He likes who he is and he misses who he can't be anymore. His payoff is the journey towards a healtier life. Damon is learning to accept love and frienship. He's learning to trust people, to grow up. His humanity has been taken away from him when he was still too young to be a mature adult, Damon's real payoff for me it's not being with Elena, but becoming the man he could have become before he turned. Ok I want him with Elena too :)
I see possible payoff for all the characters in TVD.
Haven
I've been watching this little show since the very beginning but got hooked rewatching S2 in August. It was a flash. I realized it had everything I wanted from a tv show.
What I love about it, it's that it mantains a pretty good balance between the three leads. Each of them has his own issues and storyline, but they are intertwined and well mixed up with the main arch.
Nathan and Audrey are the most angsty characters for me and this is why I am drawned to them mostly. Both as a couple and as indivuduals. Nathan breaks me because I can't even imagine how devasting his inability to feel anything might be. If I think about him as a kid, I can see how many issues he had to deal with. Add his strained relationship with his father, his insecurities issues, the lack of social skills in a pretty shy and reserved, yet friendly guy and you get the angsty picture. He is a tortured soul.
Audrey is angsty too since she doesn't know who she is and she knows she exists every 20 years for some months. Super angst too.
As a shipper I would loathe if they sink them as a couple, but S3 seems to be all about the impossibility for them to be together. I hope to see them fighting instead of running away as Lee and Kara did in BSG. Otherwise better seeing them falling in love with someone else, but not just being alone and not being together because of bad timing or advers fate. This is bullshit.
So where's the payoff here? If they don't end up together, but Audrey finds the way to stay and Nathan gets that he is worthy to be loved, they get it. If Nathan starts to trust Duke and they fix their friendship, this is payoff. If Audrey and Nathan finds a way to be happy even without being together, if Duke realizes that he can be a better man this is payoff. In this case the payoff is more about the three of them not losing each other than two of them becoming a couple.
My ship heart thinks I am writing a lot of stupid things. I want them together! Plus how cannot not love a guy who's like that with doggies??? Nathan FTW!
And finally SPN...it's a long long post I am making more because I needed to get all of this out. If you are still with me, I congrat you :)
Supernatural.
My little show has made me cry and feel like any other show in all my life. Mostly thanks to his unique main charactter: Dean Winchester. A character who can still live on his own and has often saved a show which lately has disappointed me in every possible way. Dean is the only reason I am still watching Supernatural.
So this is the premise, but it's important because you have to understand where I am with this show. Speaking of angst, I feel it if I care about the characters. Dean is angst, but he is alone because there is no connection with the other main characters for me. Not anymore.
Sadly, Sam is a character who might not even been on the show and I woldn't miss at all. I wouldn't miss the brotherly bond, which was the reason who got me hooked up, because they have destroyed it in the last two seasons. I am at the point where I think Dean and Sam should be apart so that they could really do what they want and be what they are. I don't want to see Dean stuck in the role of the brother's keeper anymore. I am scared by what S8 might be regarding the brotherly bond. ...who knew I would have ever said that.
Castiel...ann_tara asked me about my Dean/Castiel thoughts, so here we go. To love Cas as I used to, I have to detach and remember who he was in S4 and in S5 and mostly I have to ignore some rabid Cas fans who blames Dean for everything.
Cas betrayal for me is something I can hardly forgive. The way he acted, how he rejected Dean and ignored all the signs which were telling him he was wrong, are just testing my love for Castiel. I can't really explain why. Probably it's because I wasn't expecting him to betray his only friend like he did. I didn't think Cas would have never been able to turn his back on Dean. With Sam, everytime he did, I was exepcting it and his actions led me to where I am now. Indifference. I don't care about him anymore. I don't feel for him anymore. With Cas is different because I have loved him from the very beginning in a way I have never loved Sam. I was totally emotionally invested in his friendhsip with Dean, I was happy to see someone not taking Dean for granted, someone who chose to question his own beliefs for him. I have loved to see Cas changing and getting to love the humans because of his love for Dean. None has ever done something like that for Dean.
Castiel decided to trust Dean, the S6 happened and everything was wasted. I am not even talking about the fact that the writers didn't know what to do with him in S7 and screwed up with his character (do we really have to talk about crazy Castiel???).
They had him destroy what I have loved the most in him: his loyalty to Dean.
It's not enough for me what he did at the end of S7. Maybe it's enough for Dean, but something is broken for me and I don't know if it can be fixed. Probably Dean and Cas will be able to fix their friendship but I seem stuck at being too disappointed in Castiel to completly forgive him.
As for Dean,leelust, of course he is an angsty character. He has lived in hell since he was four and burdened with what none can deal with. He's depressed, he has PTSD and things can get only worse after Purgatory. I just don't feel the others. They left me all cold.
As for the payoff, SPN lacks totally in this department. Where's the payoff for the characters? Where's for Dean? Has he to be stuck forever in pain and sorrow just because he is Dean and that's his life? I want him to fight, to escape from the cage he seems to be stuck in. I don't want him to leave the hunt because Dean is a hunter, but he can be a healtier one. He can deprive himself of his burden, he can share it with someone who wants to take it, who choose to be with him because he likes Dean, not because he has to.
Fighting to get himself a real, complete life is the payoff he deserves.
Are we going to see this sooner or later?
jaelle85, ewanmax and herowlness!!!-HAPPY MONDAY you all, hope you had a nice weekend. We went to the movies yesterday and Gaia watche her first one on the big screen. It was the Ice Age 4 and she really enjoyed it. She said she loved it and want to go again :)
-This week is the SPN week, yay!!! Though Jared last words on Sam pissed me off, I am excited and happy to see Dean again. I can't wait.
-I had a long and interesting twitter chat with
leelust and ann_tara about Haven and tv shows in general. They asked me to post my thoughts and this is what you'll find under the last cut.First, some links for
ann_tara and leelust about Haven spoilers and the cast interviews.The Three Amigos – Haven’s Emily Rose, Lucas Bryant & Eric Balfour
In this one you'll find how the relationship between Nathan and Duke should get more interesting and that Nathan&Audrey match up will satisfy the fans.
Lucas Bryant about S3
He said that Nathan is determined to keep Audrey in his life.
"Lucas Bryant".
This is older, before the finale last year but he addressed the N/A relationship for S3. He said there will be roadblocks and speed-bump (looks like TVD!)
Since this is also a Haven post, some thoughts about the second episode.
-I liked the storyline. I loved Cookie. I adored Nathan with Cookie;)
-The psychiatric is nice and I want to see more of her.
-I want Nathan and Duke to be BBF, but I get why Nathan doesn't trust him. He's been bullied and betrayed too many times by Duke in the past to trust him so easily. Also Nathan is jealous, so I think it will take a while for the two of them to become friends again.
-I want to know who the Hunter is.
-I don't trust Dwight. Not completly.
-Audrey you have to tell Nathan the truth. No secrets. He's the one you trust the most. He is your friend. You are going to pull away from him to protect him, but you will break him nonetheless, so please...don't do this.
I don't know if my cuople will end up together because I see a lot of angst coming. Obviously the stakes are too high and there might not be room for a romance right now, but they have been building up this relationship for 2 years and I don't think they are going to waste it. They are not going to sink my ship. NO way.
Let's say some words spoken by Lucas and Emily and the lyirics of the song played at the end (A Soft Place to Land), make me stay positive.
Long long post under the cut...
Premise: I'm not good at the meta thing. I'm not good at writing down why I like something. I'd rather talk about it but sometimes written words fail me, so bear me :)
My favorite genre on TV has to be sci-fi. I think it requires an extra effort to make a show work and let us be carried away by our imagination. It's also a way to talk about the reality without being in the real world.
Of course to get me hooked up, a show must have a good cast, well developed characters and storylines and has to balance the singe sl with the main arc.
What really makes me fall and feel for a show, in the sense that I feel the urge to watch it and can't wait a whole week, is the constant battle between angst and payoff.
What's Angst for me? It's that deep emotion that combines the unbearable angush of life with the hopes of overcoming this seemingly impossible situation (Urban Dictionary).
It's the internal turmoil of a character that you can find in every action, every word, every relationship this character lives.
I'm not interested in happy endings, I am interested in the journey the characters make to get their payoff.
There must be payoff. If a well developed character spend all his life in pain and suffering and he doesn't have a payoff, the whole journey would not make sense.
Let me explain this better with some examples.
Battlestar Galactica.
I still think it was one of the best show ever, so I am pretty content with how they wrote it.
As a shipper, my heart was broken multiple times and the end cancelled every hopes for Lee and Kara to be together. I was seeing that coming. I never had the feeling they would have been together because they didn't fight enough. They were stuck, trapped and they failed themselves as a couple. So where's the payoff? They didn't fail themselves as people. They both accomplished something. Kara led them to safety. Lee was able to have a fresh start and be whoever he wanted to be. As characters they got their payoff. They had a purpose and they didn't fail it.
The Vampire Diaries
Damon is angst, in everything he does, says, feels. Angst is a state of mind for him. This comes out especially in the relationship with the two people he loves the most: his brother and Elena. Damon's angst is strictly connected to his way of loving. He loves with intensity and desperation. All this love is not even always recognized from some of the characters, who still consider him as a selfish, bad guy. But you can see the angst also in this because Damon wants to be considered that way, so he doesn't have to live up to anyone's expectations. Damon is torn. He likes who he is and he misses who he can't be anymore. His payoff is the journey towards a healtier life. Damon is learning to accept love and frienship. He's learning to trust people, to grow up. His humanity has been taken away from him when he was still too young to be a mature adult, Damon's real payoff for me it's not being with Elena, but becoming the man he could have become before he turned. Ok I want him with Elena too :)
I see possible payoff for all the characters in TVD.
Haven
I've been watching this little show since the very beginning but got hooked rewatching S2 in August. It was a flash. I realized it had everything I wanted from a tv show.
What I love about it, it's that it mantains a pretty good balance between the three leads. Each of them has his own issues and storyline, but they are intertwined and well mixed up with the main arch.
Nathan and Audrey are the most angsty characters for me and this is why I am drawned to them mostly. Both as a couple and as indivuduals. Nathan breaks me because I can't even imagine how devasting his inability to feel anything might be. If I think about him as a kid, I can see how many issues he had to deal with. Add his strained relationship with his father, his insecurities issues, the lack of social skills in a pretty shy and reserved, yet friendly guy and you get the angsty picture. He is a tortured soul.
Audrey is angsty too since she doesn't know who she is and she knows she exists every 20 years for some months. Super angst too.
As a shipper I would loathe if they sink them as a couple, but S3 seems to be all about the impossibility for them to be together. I hope to see them fighting instead of running away as Lee and Kara did in BSG. Otherwise better seeing them falling in love with someone else, but not just being alone and not being together because of bad timing or advers fate. This is bullshit.
So where's the payoff here? If they don't end up together, but Audrey finds the way to stay and Nathan gets that he is worthy to be loved, they get it. If Nathan starts to trust Duke and they fix their friendship, this is payoff. If Audrey and Nathan finds a way to be happy even without being together, if Duke realizes that he can be a better man this is payoff. In this case the payoff is more about the three of them not losing each other than two of them becoming a couple.
My ship heart thinks I am writing a lot of stupid things. I want them together! Plus how cannot not love a guy who's like that with doggies??? Nathan FTW!
And finally SPN...it's a long long post I am making more because I needed to get all of this out. If you are still with me, I congrat you :)
Supernatural.
My little show has made me cry and feel like any other show in all my life. Mostly thanks to his unique main charactter: Dean Winchester. A character who can still live on his own and has often saved a show which lately has disappointed me in every possible way. Dean is the only reason I am still watching Supernatural.
So this is the premise, but it's important because you have to understand where I am with this show. Speaking of angst, I feel it if I care about the characters. Dean is angst, but he is alone because there is no connection with the other main characters for me. Not anymore.
Sadly, Sam is a character who might not even been on the show and I woldn't miss at all. I wouldn't miss the brotherly bond, which was the reason who got me hooked up, because they have destroyed it in the last two seasons. I am at the point where I think Dean and Sam should be apart so that they could really do what they want and be what they are. I don't want to see Dean stuck in the role of the brother's keeper anymore. I am scared by what S8 might be regarding the brotherly bond. ...who knew I would have ever said that.
Castiel...
ann_tara asked me about my Dean/Castiel thoughts, so here we go. To love Cas as I used to, I have to detach and remember who he was in S4 and in S5 and mostly I have to ignore some rabid Cas fans who blames Dean for everything.Cas betrayal for me is something I can hardly forgive. The way he acted, how he rejected Dean and ignored all the signs which were telling him he was wrong, are just testing my love for Castiel. I can't really explain why. Probably it's because I wasn't expecting him to betray his only friend like he did. I didn't think Cas would have never been able to turn his back on Dean. With Sam, everytime he did, I was exepcting it and his actions led me to where I am now. Indifference. I don't care about him anymore. I don't feel for him anymore. With Cas is different because I have loved him from the very beginning in a way I have never loved Sam. I was totally emotionally invested in his friendhsip with Dean, I was happy to see someone not taking Dean for granted, someone who chose to question his own beliefs for him. I have loved to see Cas changing and getting to love the humans because of his love for Dean. None has ever done something like that for Dean.
Castiel decided to trust Dean, the S6 happened and everything was wasted. I am not even talking about the fact that the writers didn't know what to do with him in S7 and screwed up with his character (do we really have to talk about crazy Castiel???).
They had him destroy what I have loved the most in him: his loyalty to Dean.
It's not enough for me what he did at the end of S7. Maybe it's enough for Dean, but something is broken for me and I don't know if it can be fixed. Probably Dean and Cas will be able to fix their friendship but I seem stuck at being too disappointed in Castiel to completly forgive him.
As for Dean,
leelust, of course he is an angsty character. He has lived in hell since he was four and burdened with what none can deal with. He's depressed, he has PTSD and things can get only worse after Purgatory. I just don't feel the others. They left me all cold.As for the payoff, SPN lacks totally in this department. Where's the payoff for the characters? Where's for Dean? Has he to be stuck forever in pain and sorrow just because he is Dean and that's his life? I want him to fight, to escape from the cage he seems to be stuck in. I don't want him to leave the hunt because Dean is a hunter, but he can be a healtier one. He can deprive himself of his burden, he can share it with someone who wants to take it, who choose to be with him because he likes Dean, not because he has to.
Fighting to get himself a real, complete life is the payoff he deserves.
Are we going to see this sooner or later?
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no subject
Date: 2012-10-01 10:56 am (UTC)Interesting take on Damon, and as usual I agree with all of it. I'm with you that Damon's payoff will be the ability to accept friendship and love from those close to him. As much as I want Damon to simply be happy, I believe that him & Elena getting to a place where they can be together will certainly achieve that for both of them. :)
Less than 2 weeks now, sweetie!!! I can't wait!
no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 07:52 am (UTC)Oh you know I want him happy too and him being happy means him having Elena, so I am all for it.
That would be the perfect payoff, but I do think he can live a pretty decent and happy (even if not complete) life even without her. Because Damon is strong and values his life.
OMG less than 10 days!!!!
no subject
Date: 2012-10-01 12:15 pm (UTC)*HUGS*
no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 07:52 am (UTC)LOve you.
So in conclusion I should watch Haven?
Date: 2012-10-01 02:24 pm (UTC)I haven't seen Haven though, not even a single episode. Should I go get season 1 right now? Why did it take you up until season 2 to appreciate it?
Re: So in conclusion I should watch Haven?
Date: 2012-10-02 07:56 am (UTC)I have always appreciated it, just not like I did in S2. I don't know. It wasn't love at first sight like it was with SPN or BSG.
When it comes to shows that look alike to things I have deeply loved (like XFiles or Vampires) it takes me some time to get hooked up. It was the same with The Vampire Diaries. I am picky when it comes to the vampire mythology and since I didn't like Twilight, I was afraid it was just like that. TVD is way better imo.
Haven is a little show, but very well done and where sci-fi fans can find what they want to.
So I slowly fell in love with Haven and now I am totally a fan!
no subject
Date: 2012-10-01 09:35 pm (UTC)First of all i agree about angst and (esp) pay off.
But i has to disagree about bsg there.
I think moore failed the ending and failed both lee and kara cause for me there was no pay off for them.
As you said they didn't fight for themselves but as a fan of happy endings (to some extent) i thought their purpose in this story was to fight and win and be together. I didn't watch s4 through the end cause i couldn't take it anymore. Moore failed kara and esp Lee making him an idiot in the end (talking from other people's words cause i never saw the finale).
I have tons of issues with Moore and will never watch anything from him again. I think it's enough to show how much disappointed i was in bsg finale.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 08:30 am (UTC)I disagree with those people. Lee wasn't an idiot but I get why they said it. The last scene between the two of them was silly and disappointing. It wasn't the closure they needed and deserved. I deeply disliked it. I felt betrayed by how their storyline made a 360° turn because if there's one thing I can't tolerate in a show is when they write a story for seasons and they fail it completely (that why I am still mad at the SPn writers when they changed the S5 finale, just because they got renewed or I'll be at the Haven ones if they sink Audrey and Nathan after having built up two seasons around their relationship). But I do still think that if they failed as a couple, they didn't as people because they could realize their destiny.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-03 05:00 pm (UTC)They said he was an idiot because of what he did in the end. The whole end of the show was silly and embarrassing. And Lee was OOC there.
I so agree with you on that if the show builds up a story it has to have a pay off and not to be written completely oOC just because.
I hate s5 finale too for the same reason cause if anything else it shows that the showrunners think viewers are so stupid. And i don't like people who think i'm an idiot. Cause i'm not. And if i can see what they planned before and how they changed the story to accomodate a whiny brat it doesn't make me a crazy fan it makes them ungrateful bastards.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-01 09:41 pm (UTC)As you know i don't ship Audrey with anyone there and for me should she stay alone it'll be good for me. But since she chose to be with Nat i accept her decision.
She's very mysterious and angsty character and i enjoy watching her (and the actress who plays her).
I like both Nat and Duke with her in many levels and i do like the balance the writers found making her the lead character but not failing 2 male leads as they go.
Will there be a pay off if Audrey ends up alone? No. Right now her )and Nat's) fight is to break the circle and stop Audrey from disappearing and if they'll fail it there'll be no pay off and somehow i think they only can make it together.
So for me winning this fight = staying together.
Of course there can be some complications and i don't mind them. And i'll accept if after stopping this mess they'll decide to take some time apart. But in this particular story? They must end up together! that's pay off for me.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 08:36 am (UTC)I think that if Audrey, Nathan and Duke will break the circle and she won't disappear, this will be a payoff for all of them. Audrey can be safe, but decide to not be with Nathan or Nathan might fall for someone else...I just don't want to see Audrey and Nathanin pain because they love each other but they can't be together.
Oh yeah...you are a shipper in disguise ;)
no subject
Date: 2012-10-03 04:55 pm (UTC)I'm ok with the show shipping them cause if he's good for her he's good for me :)
I just don't get why to make a show if the lead characters will have no hope in the end? So if they won't find a way to break that circle the whole show won't make any sense.
That's my take on this story.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-03 05:12 pm (UTC)But as Lucas Bryant said in another interview, the fans will be sad, excited, sad again and then very happy...so I have hopes :)
no subject
Date: 2012-10-03 07:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-04 10:49 am (UTC)Here you go :)
no subject
Date: 2012-10-07 02:19 pm (UTC)And he teases a lot. But in the end he said that fans will be happy! YAY!!!!!
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 11:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-01 09:54 pm (UTC)As you know for a long time i don't care about sam and wish Dean would be able to live without spending every hour of his life cleaning after sam's mess. So i'll try not mention him again.
Cas otoh is a really different story. I agree some cas fans can be annoying but cas isn't his fans.
We talked about cas' situation before and i get it how much disappointed you can be about betrayal cas did. I am too.
For me the difference is that cas not only not denying that what he did was wrong, that he deserves to die, he also still gets Dean, even not being himself (yes, let's talk about crazyCas!) he managed to understand Dean's situation with depth and compassion. He admitted that Dean was right and he felt bad about what he did. it's not an excuse and it's not something you can easily forget and forgive but it's a start.
I have no idea what they plan for Cas in s8 but i hope they won't blame Dean for cas' mistakes cause i believe cas is strong enough of a character to be responsible for what he did. He doesn't need whitewashing.
As for angst that's what i told you before many times - for me Dean ending up on the road till he dies it's a pay off he deserves. he is a hunter, no, he is The Hunter and i don't want him to stop but as you said (ITA!) he has to find some balance in his life, some harbour to stay and rest and feel good about his life again. I don't tell white-picket shit but something close to family. a home, something Dean was always dreaming of.
He needs it, without it he wont last long and i wish a long and happy life for Dean.
Having that will help Dean to finally overcome the bounds John put him in a long time ago. It'll let him to grow as a person and be a better man (not that he isn't a good man right now of course).
That personal journey i'm hoping for for Dean is my angst. Cause Dean is very capable of changes and is good enough and strong enough to make them and grow over his issues. This show needs just let him.
That's why i'm fearing and anticipating this new season of spn. Cuase it has a lot of potential. Sadle on of said potentials can be to ruin Dean's sl again :/ But i don't want to harsg my own squee not watching even the premeire so i'm willing to wait and see *fingers crossed*
no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 08:48 am (UTC)I agree with you about Cas realizing what he did to him. My reaction is so strong because I am invested in him like I have never been in Sam. Cas should have never betrayed Dean in the first place just because he was an angel and he should have known better. To get what he wanted he manipulated Dean, he fooled him worling with Crowley, he lied to him. Mostly he didn't listen to him (and no the fact that Dean could have payed more attention and so some fans tries to blame Dean for Cas action doesn't work for me. Dean was busy cleaning Cas mess in the first place).
i believe cas is strong enough of a character to be responsible for what he did. He doesn't need whitewashing.
THIS THIS THIS!
I don't tell white-picket shit but something close to family. a home, something Dean was always dreaming of.
He needs it, without it he wont last long and i wish a long and happy life for Dean.
I agree. His life won't ever be easy but he deserves something to make it worth living. Not because saving people is not, but sometimes it's not enough.
Cause Dean is very capable of changes and is good enough and strong enough to make them and grow over his issues.
I so agree. He is such a compelling character.
Cuase it has a lot of potential.
How many times have you heard this? I dread this season and after Singer last words I know why.
Instead of holding who is to be hold responsible of his actions, Dean will be blamed for what he did in Purgatory. You know what? I love Dean Winchester because he is not perfect. I despise characters whom the show wants to be perfect and make monodimensional.
I don't want Cas to become like that.
But I am positive, the premiere sounds amazing!
Thanks for talking :)
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Date: 2012-10-03 04:52 pm (UTC)Still, no whitewashing, please! No blaming Dean for anything Cas did/does/will do.
I have to say in a long run saving people is not enough cause it runs you dry and you have no will to recuperate. A hero needs his home, some safe place to lick his wounds, and someone to have his back, to rely on. Not in the hunt but in moment of peace.
That's why i was glad Dean had Lisa (before they ruined her). I wish he'd be able to see himself not only as a hunter or a killer.
Right now it doesn't feel like they
re going there :/ But i hope at least in my version of this universe Dean will find someone who finally will open his eyes to show how awesome he is even if not hunting.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-04 11:49 am (UTC)I agree :)
Amen to everything you said.
Part 1
Date: 2012-10-02 06:20 pm (UTC)Thanks for the links to the Haven interviews. Makes me feel a little better about the possibility of some kind of a happy ending for Nate/Audrey. I never saw the Duke/Audrey possibility anyway - I honestly don't think it was intended that way. Duke was always a friend, always willing to help Audrey, but there was nothing romantic on that front.
I love how much this cast adores each other, and I think that comes through on screen in layers to characterization, and makes a huge difference in the likability of a show in general. :) I know this show is always on the fence come renewal time, because it's not just Syfy, but the production studio in Canada that decides if they want to continue with it each year - so we're always having to wait an extra long time on renewal. *biting fingernails*
All three characters are the epitome of angst - and maybe that's why we root for all of them. ;) Unlike you, though, I like Dwight - I don't get any kind of duplicitous vibe off him. I think he's been a good addition to the show so far.
The Vampire Diaries, of course, is one big honkin' ball of angst! Is there any character on that show who isn't full of angst - really? I don't think so. Damon, Stefan, and Elena are certainly up front and center with their angsty directions - but I can't really think of anyone who has an easy time of it. ;) I'm really anxious for next week's premiere. This season has the opportunity to be truly epic now that Elena has join the vampy ranks.
I don't so much care if Damon ends up with Elena or not. Quite frankly, once she embraces her new vamp status, Elena should discover that eternity is an awfully long time to be tied down to one guy. LOL! But, seriously, it should make her more open to other possibilities in time. But, ultimately, I just want Damon to accept himself and be comfortable in his own skin, being the way he wants to be, and not making any apologies for it.
Of course, my big fear is that he will die for good at some point before the series ends, because I have heard that he does die in the books. But I haven't read them, and I don't know how early or late in the story that happens.
Re: Part 1
Date: 2012-10-03 11:23 am (UTC)I agree. I don't see the triangle here. Also in another interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Ph8LgPCx4) he said everything will be good and the fans will be sad, hopeful, sad again and then very happy. I am hopeful. Maybe it ends with a cliffhanger where they say they love each other...and we have to hope to get a S4 (looks like the process is more complicated than for the networks shows) :)
All three characters are the epitome of angst - and maybe that's why we root for all of them. ;)
YES! Waiting to talk more about new Haven episodes with you :)))
Unlike you, though, I like Dwight - I don't get any kind of duplicitous vibe off him. I think he's been a good addition to the show so far.
Rewatched some episodes with him in them and that vibe faded, so count me in the list of the ones who like him.
ITA on TVD!
He dies in the books but he gets back. It's the supernatural world after all :)
OMG I can't even think at the possibility of Damon dying for good (or Dean for the matters).
Part 2
Date: 2012-10-02 06:22 pm (UTC)I completely agree that Dean and Sam are better apart, and my fantasy is that Dean is finally allowed to see that too. Of course, from the very beginning I always felt the relationship was about as one-sided as it could be. There were steps taken to bring the brothers closer and make Sam a lot more caring than he was at the beginning - but as early as season three, it started falling apart, and by season four any effort made in that direction was dismantled entirely and they never got it back. The highly touted fanonical "bond" has been MIA far longer than not, and I'm at the point that I'm comfortable not believing in it, because I truly don't think the writers ever did. I think they used it as a hook those first few years to stay on the air, because they quickly saw that the fans liked it; but after that, they gave up the pretense.
It doesn't make matters any easier given the fact that Padalecki isn't interested in "the bond" either, and the producers are always having to try and please him.
Dean is my hook, and honestly my only reason for sticking around this long. Jensen has done a phenomenal job piling on layers, angsty and otherwise, to a character that Kripke originally saw very one-dimensionally, and had a very derogatory opinion of. Jensen took hold of not just the character, but the show, and for a while Kripke was okay with it because it brought him success. But petty jealousies started rearing their ugly little heads, and now it seems like Jensen is having to work overtime with no payoff.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2012-10-03 12:46 pm (UTC)It was for me too. As a viewer I found it childish and unbelievable. Poor characterization.
There were steps taken to bring the brothers closer and make Sam a lot more caring than he was at the beginning - but as early as season three, it started falling apart, and by season four any effort made in that direction was dismantled entirely and they never got it back.
Sadly, you are right. They didn't even try and it broke for good the brotherly bond imo.
Dean is my hook, and honestly my only reason for sticking around this long.
Mine too.
Jensen took hold of not just the character, but the show, and for a while Kripke was okay with it because it brought him success. But petty jealousies started rearing their ugly little heads, and now it seems like Jensen is having to work overtime with no payoff.
I am not sure how I feel about this, but I can see your point. I love the passion Jensen puts in his job no matter what.
Part 3
Date: 2012-10-02 06:25 pm (UTC)In fact, I'll be honest and tell you that as far back as the beat-down in PoNR, I had to go and unsub from everything Castiel and Misha-related. All communities and certain personal LJs, as well as pulling out of any other forums where Cas is the focal point. I didn't want to truly hate Cas, and I would have a long time ago if I hadn't backed off. I rarely even read any Destiel fiction because I get the feeling it is predominantly written by Cas fans, and that the Dean fans have moved on to other fandoms entirely. That may just be my perception, but it's one I have obtained honestly.
Then, of course, there was the trashing of Castiel through his own actions and arrogance, much in the same way that Sam is often written. But unlike Sam, and more like Dean, Castiel doesn't quite get the unlimited whitewashing that Sam does, and that Dean is never afforded.
Unfortunately, yes, a lot of his fans are on the same Dean-bashing page that many Sam fans are. Blame is placed on Dean for everything Cas does wrong, just as he is blamed for all of Sam's faults. So Dean is expected to shoulder the blame for every other character's actions, as well as the blame for his own faults, because, again, the writers never let him off the hook for anything, anymore than fandom does. Good grief, no wonder the guy is angst personified!
Funny, though, I think it's also exactly why Dean remains the most popular character - because who doesn't root for the underdog? Who doesn't feel sorry for the guy everyone dumps on? Yet seven years later, none of the producers get it.
And I think we already know Dean is going to be blamed for what happened to Cas in Purgatory, and he's going to be vilified for being hurt by the fact that Sam didn't bother to look for him - and it's going to come from the canonical text to some degree (how much, we don't know yet), and definitely from the fannish text. And it's so exhausting that this is why I always hope the show will finally be put to bed. I don't know how much longer I can put up with it. It's only for my love of Dean Winchester and admiration for Jensen Ackles that I've hung on this long.
Sure, I still want to see Dean and Cas repair their friendship, but I know it won't be as satisfying as it should be, because I know the routine. We've been here too many times for me not to figure out what's going to happen, and what won't happen that needs to happen.
I'm glad Jensen is a lot happier this season - so far - than he has been the last three years. I hope his enthusiasm says more about the direction of the season than the producers or some of the other actors do in interviews. But I'm never not going to stop expecting the other shoe to drop, because it always does.
Again, I have to be honest and say that I'll be relieved when the show is finally over. ;)
Thanks for writing all this! I enjoyed reading it. :D
Re: Part 3
Date: 2012-10-03 01:12 pm (UTC)Glad to know I am not alone in this.
and that the Dean fans have moved on to other fandoms entirely. That may just be my perception, but it's one I have obtained honestly.
Dean fans are less vocal. LJ seems to be a Sam focused place, while Tumblr is Cas.
Dean girls talk in their inner circles and on twitter but they don't (and I am among these) stir up the conversation just bashing the other characters. Some of us do of course, but there is a silent majority who thinks Dean is the best thing in SPN and just want to enjoy him.
But unlike Sam, and more like Dean, Castiel doesn't quite get the unlimited whitewashing that Sam does, and that Dean is never afforded.
That's why I still feel something for him.
So Dean is expected to shoulder the blame for every other character's actions, as well as the blame for his own faults, because, again, the writers never let him off the hook for anything, anymore than fandom does. Good grief, no wonder the guy is angst personified!
But he does it so well :) You know I think this happens because basically the writers aren't able (and have never been) to write a strong characterization for Sam (and partially for Castiel) that can live on its own. It's like to make them interesting, they have to involve Dean and create tension between them so that Dean can be blamed. This is because, imho, Dean is the only character that can live on his own and survises also the writers intentions or bad writing.
Who doesn't feel sorry for the guy everyone dumps on? Yet seven years later, none of the producers get it.
AMEN TO THAT!
And I think we already know Dean is going to be blamed for what happened to Cas in Purgatory, and he's going to be vilified for being hurt by the fact that Sam didn't bother to look for him - and it's going to come from the canonical text to some degree (how much, we don't know yet), and definitely from the fannish text.
Of course. While Sam will be justified because not only he abandoned his brother, but he didn't try to help Kevin and ditching his mobiles, he practically didn't give a damn about the boy. kevin was left alone fighting.
Can you tolerate that? Because I can't.
Sure, I still want to see Dean and Cas repair their friendship, but I know it won't be as satisfying as it should be, because I know the routine.
Exactly.
Thanks for writing all this! I enjoyed reading it. :D
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Can't wait for more talks and discussions :)))
Will post my reaction tomorrow.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-03 09:27 pm (UTC)Now Dean...oh Dean. I agree with you thoughts on him and the angst he's been trapped in ever since his mother's murder. I truly hope we see the payoff Dean deserves like you said. He has more than earned it.
tbc..
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Date: 2012-10-03 09:27 pm (UTC)Its funny, Jared used to be able to give some more insight into his character and Sam's thoughts and motivations, but the past couple years when he answers questions like that I've found him to be basically quoting the dialogue he was given. 7.04 and Sam's spiel about feeling redeemed, moving on blah blah that made no sense and practically killed the character for good for me is one example. But I'm stubborn and as much as I dislike Sam and don't care about him, the story IS about the Winchester brothers and he deserves a good story and a moral clean out and real redemption and character growing arc. Problem is, as fans, we're too used to his deeds being whitewashed and him never accepting full responsibility for his actions, instead dumping everything on Dean.
I was on a spoiler column site and the moderator and a commenter actually discussed Sam's story as well as Carver. Carver was running the American version of "Being Human" with his wife after leaving SPN originally. From what has been said, the show is really good and all three main characters are held accountable for their actions. So there is still a strong possibility Sam will be held accountable for his most recent actions. The comments also pointed out though an interesting possibility...oh, I'm just going to quote them both cause they said it better than I can, lol.
You know there might be sort of a weird logic to Sam’s storyline. It sounds like he is starting off doing the same old thing, throwing everyone to the wolves to give himself what he wants. But it could also be a way to bring this cycle to an end. If Sam finally faces that this is no way to treat the people who have always been loyal (Dean) and the people who have needed him to save them (Kevin and Meg). Perhaps, he’ll finally see this behavior for what it is, see this terrible fault in his personality and come to terms with it, make amends and turn it all around so that we can all like him again. If I were going to try to reboot the characters I might take that route. Put Sam in position where his worst faults came to the fore front — enhance them so they were over the top inexcusable, let him get caught, and then finally see the error of his ways. The fault would be purged, all would be forgiven and Sam and Dean would be back in business.
~
It could also be a way for Carver to put Sam on the hook for his actions without having some fans insist that Sam is not at fault. Sam has been given so many outs and been set up as a victim, even when he was harming others, by previous showrunners, that Carver really needs to draw a line under all that if he wants to get away from Special Sam and give him a redemption storyline. Basically have Sam spend the year being as unheroic as possible and then confront him with those who suffered from his actions, to make him make up for it
For me, personally, if that is what Carver intends and what plays out, I'll be very, very happy!! Sam does need a redemption, big time, and this way it would address everything he's done and gotten away with over the years without completely re-hashing it. Here's hoping that's where the writers take Sam so he can make a comeback as a genuine, dimensional character that is actually likable.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-04 11:59 am (UTC)He absolved himself and din't care for the consequences on the others.
the story IS about the Winchester brothers and he deserves a good story and a moral clean out and real redemption and character growing arc.
You know we are not going to get it, don't you?
So there is still a strong possibility Sam will be held accountable for his most recent actions.
That's hopeful.
If Sam finally faces that this is no way to treat the people who have always been loyal (Dean) and the people who have needed him to save them (Kevin and Meg). Perhaps, he’ll finally see this behavior for what it is, see this terrible fault in his personality and come to terms with it, make amends and turn it all around so that we can all like him again.
Did you see the premiere. If not, we will discuss about this later because right now I can't without spoiling you.
It could also be a way for Carver to put Sam on the hook for his actions without having some fans insist that Sam is not at fault.
This might be. I wish the writers could read this.
For me, personally, if that is what Carver intends and what plays out, I'll be very, very happy!!
Me too but I am not that positive :)
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Date: 2012-10-04 09:07 pm (UTC)That said, I'm someone who can never shake that little annoying bug called hope. *shrugs* What can I say? I'm seriously hoping because Sam deserves good characterization like I said. Now if only the writers figure it out and implement it too. Hope..a double edged sword...but without hope, then what? :) Just my feelings on the matter.
Also, I've seen some talk about a couple interviews, one with Carver and Singer earlier this week that has Dean fans on edge because it sounds like things are going to be turned around on Dean and leave him lam-blasted yet again. What's that about? What exactly did they say?
As much as I have high hopes for Carver, I am wary because he DID write PONR when Castiel beat the crap out of Dean so horribly. And I have never re-watched the episode except for the part where Dean takes out Zachariah as a result. That part was totally awesome and powerful and it was soo disappointing that Dena's glowing eyes were never followed up on. So, I am wary. Do you think something like that will happen again? *is worried*
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Date: 2012-10-04 11:52 am (UTC)I thought it was incredibly powerful even though I was pissed at finding about everything going on with Cas that late in the season
Exactly this. He betrayed Dean way too easily given how much important he was for Cas.
As for Dean, after all these years I just want him to be comfortable with who he is and fight for what he deserves.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-04 09:10 pm (UTC):D
Missed you, Val!