HAPPY MONDAY!!!!

[x5vale]

How are you doing flist?

I am ok, I spent the whole weekend cleaning up the house after the renovations...but I am happy of how it looks now.

I was re-thinking about the last SPN episode and seriously I don't see how they can get out of the corner they put themselves into bringing back Bobby.

If they want to be in canon either he has to die or become an evil ghost. The end has to be dark.

What do think?

Comments

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Hey, bb!!

Oi...tis always the clean up!! But I'm so glad it turned out lovely!!

I'd like to see how they try, though...


*SNUGGLES*

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Me too....

Thank you!!!

[bitterbird.livejournal.com]

clean up sounds nice hon!

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

It does :)

[leelust.livejournal.com]

I've cold :(
Can't wait for the pics! I hope you'll post both - how your house looked before and after renovation. It's so awesome to look for differences.

As for spn - finally! I was worried that we saw the ep so differently. That part with bobby - that's what bothered me much about the ep. How can it be good considering canon? HOW? And how can it be good for Dean? He knows bobby's gone and he needs to make peace with that thought but now he'll be hurt again by knowing bobby's back and now will become an evil spirit?
Add here that i don't get how a seasoned hunter like bobby could chose to become a ghost? Knowing the circumstances? How could he hurt Dean like that? It's all OOC for him even if i'm not like the guy.
Also with that return they cheapened his death and all Dean's mourn. Big mistake! And lazy writing.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

I'll try to do it :)

It was lazy writing exactly like it was solving like that Sam's situation. So I do agree with you.

This is going to kill Dean. Seriously.

[oanaspn.livejournal.com]

Looking forward to the progress pics, hun...

I am curious to know how they will get out of this,either. But poor Bobby, every fan knows what will become of a ghost spending to much as an entity. Remember Tessa's words towards ghost Dean in "In my time of dying"? Spending to much time as a ghost could easily turn him in a vengeful spirit, the same thing they hunt...*sigh*. I,m really hoping this will not be Bobby's fate

Happy Monday

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Yeah and what if Dean will be the one forced to kill him? How hurtful would be for him?

*sighs*

*loves*

[ckll.livejournal.com]

I hope Bobby is a friendly ghost who maybe he's trapped somewhere.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

If they want to saty in canon, it can't exist a friendly ghost...

[ann-tara.livejournal.com]

You know, they've crapped all over most, if not all, of their long-standing canon over the last three years that I honestly don't believe any thought whatsoever went into why or how or the consequences of keeping Bobby around as a ghost.

The real bottom line is that it continues to cheapen "death" on this show and makes it an even bigger joke than it was already.

Congrats on the renovations - pix, if you can! :D

[oanaspn.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you, since Sera took over everything's gone to hell...

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

My fear is exactly this, that they haven't thought about the consequences.

I will, soon :)

[smilla02.livejournal.com]

If it were me writing the show, I'd go the route of the angry spirit. I thought that the hunt in the hospital in 717 was there to remind us of that, but I'm pretty sure, the writers will go for special snowflake Bobby. LOL He won't become angry at all, but will be the very helpful ghost.
I don't mind Bobby choosing to stay as a ghost, but I'd like for the choice to have consequences. :/

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

And this is so anti-canon...and it will really ruin the consistency of the show for me.

Otherwise if they stick qith their own path, he will become angry eventually and this is going to kill Dean dead. Can you imaginge how devasted he would be if he had to be the one to actually kill Bobby?

I don't really get why they have put themselves in such a impossible situation. Either they kill Bobby(and destroy Dean emotionally)) and stay in canon or keep him around like a good ghost and screw up their own show.

I am sorry but the more I think about it, the more I agree with leelust. It's not going to be good for Dean unless they screw up the canon and then it wouldn't be good for me.

[smilla02.livejournal.com]

It's not as anti-canon as it looks, actually. There are examples (Mary, and the kid in Death Takes a Holiday) of ghosts that are not angry and vengeful, but yet, I can't see a way in which Bobby could keep staying without eventually turning into an angry, lonely ghost. And if they have to burn the flask so that Bobby can cross over it may end being ten kinds of bittersweet and painful. How do they write themselves out of this corner? IDK!

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

How long does it take to be an angry ghost? We don't know if Mary gets to turn into one of them. We don't even know if she is still a ghost.

Btw I guess that kid and mary have been used as plot devices and then they just disapperead. What they have always said (all the reapers said it) it's that a trapped ghost becomes angry at the very end.

Either way this is going to hurt Dean badly...

*sighs*

[smilla02.livejournal.com]

I don't know. Tessa says eventually in In My Time of Dying. Mary was in the house for years, the kid was a ghost only for a few days. Speaking of Death Takes a Holiday, Tessa said in that occasion that not moving over is actually hurtful to the mother who can't mourn properly and can't start the natural grieving process.

Oh,okay. A few days back Jim Michaels said that for epi 7.22 (and we have a still of Dean holding Bobby's flask there) they were going to rewatch episodes from season 4 (they didn't say which) only that it was between 4.10 and 4.16 (if I remember correctly), in any case Death Takes a Holiday is among those episodes. In case, I'd love for them to go with this motif: staying as having been a wrong choice, even though it was done out of love, because it keeps those who are alive, in this case Dean, to start mourning and coming to terms with the death of a loved one. Because it's true, this presence, even the hint of it, or the hope Dean's having that Bobby's around, is keeping him from mourning Bobby in a healthy way. It's clear when you see his face in the scene when he calls for Bobby.

Something else that came to me - and I really should write this stuff in my review of the episode *g* - is why Bobby couldn't give a sign that he was there when Dean called, even though he's supposedly been able to move objects and make stuff disappear. I don't think that the show will go there (because in that case it would actually surprise me and it doesn't anymore), but it would be cool if Bobby was not responsible for those occurrences.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Because it's true, this presence, even the hint of it, or the hope Dean's having that Bobby's around, is keeping him from mourning Bobby in a healthy way. It's clear when you see his face in the scene when he calls for Bobby.
Exactly. Even if I decide to skip the in/out canon part, what makes me cringe is that this way they are keeping Dean stuck, with his hopes still up and unable to let Bobby go. Plus, I'd like them to explore more Dean's state of mind about this...because if he finds out that Bobby is still around, being the hunter he is, what is he going to do? Is he going to do whatever it takes to have Bobby around, but trapped, or is he going to let him leave?

Oh that would be totally cool, but it's not SPN. SPN has neer really surprised me in the way to leave me speechless with its choices. I have loved (or disliked) them, but they have always been predictable for me and I am not saying this is bad, I am just saying that SPN twists were not really unexpected ones for me.

[metallidean-grl.livejournal.com]

Cleaning is never a fun thing, but cleaning up after renovations, that is exciting. It's almost like having a new house. Very cool.

As for Bobby, in total agreement with what has been said about bringing Bobby back. They gave him such a good send-off in Death's Door and now he is back? As someone else state, I also feel that this cheapens the great sendoff in many ways. So, the question then, when the Reaper asked Bobby stay or go, does this mean that Bobby decided to stay? Or did he decide to go and there was some DNA of him left with the flask that he wasn't able to leave? With how the canon has been written, if the bones are burned they move on, so there must be something within the flask that is keeping Bobby here, otherwise he should be gone right? Because his bones were burned.

I hope we get answers to all these and more questions in the next episode. The more Bobby sticks around the worse it will be for Dean and yes, Bobby will eventually become evil. So, I'm hoping that what happens with Bobby materializing is he helps them figure out the Leviathan scheme and maybe how to stop them, but then they all realize that they can't have Bobby hanging around, that he needs to move on, so they say their goodbyes and burn up the flask and Bobby leaves. They can't or shouldn't have Bobby around as the occasional ghost help because that would be all kinds of wrong. Plus, this year they said they were going to strip the boys of everything they were familiar with, and they have done that, only to bring them back?? Doesn't make sense. If they are gone, they should stay gone. A very big Dean mantra in Season 2. Let's hope that TPTB know this and write it into the last remaining episodes.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Or did he decide to go and there was some DNA of him left with the flask that he wasn't able to leave? With how the canon has been written, if the bones are burned they move on, so there must be something within the flask that is keeping Bobby here, otherwise he should be gone right? Because his bones were burned.
Yep, it's like you said. I think he decided to stay but the references to the flask are a lot so many he is forced to stay and Dean is the one who has to let him go...

,but then they all realize that they can't have Bobby hanging around, that he needs to move on, so they say their goodbyes and burn up the flask and Bobby leaves.
And you know this is going to kill Dean, don't you?

They can't or shouldn't have Bobby around as the occasional ghost help because that would be all kinds of wrong.
They got rid of Castiel because they didn't want a deus ex machina, so they can't go down that route. They just can't.

and they have done that, only to bring them back?? Doesn't make sense.
If they want to give Bobby and Cas some closure, I am fine wit it, otherwise it means they really have no idea where to go.

[metallidean-grl.livejournal.com]

Dean does have to let Bobby go, and yes, I do know that that is going to kill Dean. But, if they give them a nice moment, a real chance to say goodbye, with Dean making the choice, the decision that Bobby needs to move on, maybe it will help him to come to terms with Bobby's death. Dean has to know somewhere deep within his gut that Bobby staying around is not good, despite his personal feelings. So I do hope that the writers do what is best and right and have Bobby move on, with Dean being the one to do it. This would be the way to give Dean and Sam some closure with Bobby. Something they never got with John and deserved.

And yes, if bringing Cas and Bobby back the way that they did for both characters is a way to give them the closure they are do and to help the boys in a way they need help, then yes, I am good. But if these characters stick around just for the sake of sticking around in their current state, no, I will not be cool with it. As you said, they have written themselves into a corner. They decided to kill them, then they need to kill them and be done with it.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Dean knows, I am sure of this, what I can't deal with is how much he has to be hurt again. Why? It's not fair. Really, I want him to stop suffering...

I am with you, 100%.

[metallidean-grl.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I want Dean to stop suffering as well. He has suffered enough. He has lost and suffered too much for any man. He needs to get some peace. I certainly hope they find a way to give him some.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I thought 7.17 was a reminder that look what can happen to good people when they are stuck and frustrated and lonely. Bobby's fate could be a vengeful spirit, just as Tessa told Dean.

That said, this show has made it canon that not all spirits become vengeful. Some act as omens. Some as stuck. But most turn.

I guess we'll see.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

I agree, we'll see but I do think that Bobby can't be forever on the show in a ghost form.

It would be like having a guardian angel who shows up now and then to help the boys. A lingering presence who won't let the boys, especially Dean, mourning him as they should.

Unfortunately I think Bobby has to die, for real.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not saying Bobby won't die. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be a vengeful spirit death.

[roselani24.livejournal.com]

Hooray for the completed renovations! :D Glad to hear its finished. Hope the clean up wasn't too bad.

In regards to SPN...oi vey the stupidity of the writers astonishes me!

What a corner they have written themselves into! First the corner with Sam's Fauxifer hallucinations and hell pain, now Bobby the ghost. *facepalm*

I completely agree that for Bobby's presence to be even semi believable he needs to die or become evil/dark. To jettison that much canon when just last week there was the problem of supposed ghost in Sam's locked ward (I actually have a little theory about that so-called hunt, but back to that in a minute) was wreaking havoc on the person it was haunting is beyond stupid. And it leaves me with no respect for any of the current writers, whether new or old because that kind of sloppy writing is just unacceptable. They're supposed to be professionals! They damn well better do their jobs and pay attention to their own canon!

Ahem. Feel better having that out of my system. :)

Right, onto some wacky theories.

Been thinking about 7.17 and Sam's stay in the mental ward and there are a couple things I noticed that are bothering me. One, when the camera followed Dean and the lead doc idiot into the locked ward, the camera clearly caught the rules on the wall/door that no patient was to go anywhere un-escorted and it got me thinking: what if the hunt was all in Sam's head? For one, nobody else seemed to see her and the nurse who was later possessed only said something about not talking about other patients and never confirmed her name. Two, why were there scratches appearing on Sam's face and why was his hand all bloody and messed up after the doctor idiotically woke him up (after they had been trying to make him sleep to begin with! *headdesk*) after the burning of the bracelet. Sam was never seen eating the chocolate bar, as I recall, couldn't even open the wrapper. So, is it possible that whole damn thing was in Sam's head and a reflection of what he kinda noticed going on with Dean but couldn't due to Fauxifer 'distracting' him? I use quotes on that because from 7.03 to 7.15, there are no indications of Sam being distracted or staring off into space or anything at all. The hand thing in 7.10 doesn't really count. Another major writer fail.

Continuing in that vein, what possible reason could Sam have to not tell Dean he ran EMF and used a Ouji board in attempt to contact Bobby? This is the guy who thought Dean drove with him in the Impala to a business building, when in fact Sam drove himself to a warehouse in a stone age van due to Fauxifer messing with his mind. How could Sam know for sure his results weren't messed with by Fauxifer's presence? Cause Repo Man made it very clear Fauxifer was making Sam see things (Ha! not a chance but that is what canon poorly tried to sell to the viewers) and messing with him. Maybe Bobby did answer him or there was EMF but because of Fauxifer, Sam dismissed it as such and therefore didn't recognize Bobby was actually there. Of course that doesn't even touch on Bobby being a jerk by not trying to contact Sam as a ghostie too, instead haunting Dean.

Which brings me to Bobby's messed up ghost interference. He's only done a handful of things in the months he's been dead, half of which were to save Dean since Sam doesn't have his back. For one, how the heck did he know about Mackey and Emmanuel??? If he is tied to the flask as this episode indicated, he shouldn't be able to know.

tbc...

[roselani24.livejournal.com]

If I'm going to fan wank it, I do have this theory: what if Bobby negotiated a deal with Death? Its totally out there and nuts, but considering how Death has placed the responsibility for dealing with the Leviathans squarely on Dean, it makes some sense that Death may aid Dean in a backhand, shadowy way. And it would also explain, kinda, why Bobby doesn't have all the ghost powers he should have and why he hasn't been able to contact Dean more and let him know he's there. And if Death told him Cas was still out there...*shrugs* Its a major fan wank and not even that great of a theory as there are still tons of holes, but eh, its a thought.

There's also the issue, as other commenters have brought up, of Bobby's lingering spirit actually hurting Dean more by staying then letting Dean grieve naturally and move on in a semi healthy way. Cause let's face it, Dean doesn't let go of the one's he loves easily anyway. He loves so much and deeply because he has lost so damn much, that he holds on to those has has insanely tight. He can go on without them because he's a survivor at his core, but he won't be living as it were. He'd just survive until he found a way to get himself killed.

Honestly though, I would have preferred for the mystery of Dean's helper to have gone on longer and been more thought out. I really loved the theory that Dean might have been doing everything himself without knowing it possibly due to Michael reaching him from the cage or something. Anything but Bobby!

I'm very sad at this wasted opportunity and disappointed that the mystery of 'What's going on with Dean?" has switched to "Oh look, Bobby's here cause he's awesome and helping" even when he should be going evil and dark cause he chose to become a MOTW ghost.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

what if Bobby negotiated a deal with Death?
This does make sense, but honestly I don't see the writers going down that route. It would be interesting to see but I don't trust the vwriters enough to think that they could elaborate this theory.

He loves so much and deeply because he has lost so damn much, that he holds on to those has has insanely tight. He can go on without them because he's a survivor at his core, but he won't be living as it were. He'd just survive until he found a way to get himself killed.
And this, as a fan, kills me every single time. That's why I think bringing Bobby back is no good for anyone, especially for Dean.

. I really loved the theory that Dean might have been doing everything himself without knowing it possibly due to Michael reaching him from the cage or something.
You know, Dean is special because he's human, so I don't want him to have powers...never!


when he should be going evil and dark cause he chose to become a MOTW ghost.
Canon!wise we don't know how long it takes to the deaths to become monsters so I think he will become an angry ghost eventually. I just hope they don't give him a free pass.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

And it leaves me with no respect for any of the current writers, whether new or old because that kind of sloppy writing is just unacceptable. They're supposed to be professionals! They damn well better do their jobs and pay attention to their own canon!
You know I just think it's lazy writing. Gamble misses the chance to sit down and project a three years arc (6th, 7th and most likely 8th season) and they just don't know where to go.

For one, nobody else seemed to see her and the nurse who was later possessed only said something about not talking about other patients and never confirmed her name. Two, why were there scratches appearing on Sam's face and why was his hand all bloody and messed up after the doctor idiotically woke him up (after they had been trying to make him sleep to begin with! *headdesk*) after the burning of the bracelet. Sam was never seen eating the chocolate bar, as I recall, couldn't even open the wrapper. So, is it possible that whole damn thing was in Sam's head and a reflection of what he kinda noticed going on with Dean but couldn't due to Fauxifer 'distracting' him?
Oh now this is interesting. I used tow atch SPN so in details, now I just focus on what interests me and sadly it's not Sam and his messed up story line. I would like to see this, because it would mean that the writers were actually trying to show us how crazy Sam has gone...but do you think they really did and we will find out that this is just in Sam's mind and nothing is true?
Of course not, so yeah I really don't know.

How could Sam know for sure his results weren't messed with by Fauxifer's presence?
Don't get me started on this please...

For one, how the heck did he know about Mackey and Emmanuel??? If he is tied to the flask as this episode indicated, he shouldn't be able to know.
See? Lazy writing. The writers are missing the details.

[gidget-84.livejournal.com]

Yay, clean house! I'm glad the renovations turned out good :)

Even though I'm happy with Bobby being back, I do agree, rationally, that they have written themselves into a corner.

I'm assuming he will have to end up moving on and it will be sad, but at least, well, Sam and Dean know heaven exists, so I can only think that Bobby would be reunited with Jo, and Ellen, and Rufus, and everybody else. So that would be okay I think for me.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

It would be ok for me too hon, and it would be comforting for the boys :)

[vella-amor-dm.livejournal.com]

yay the renovations are done! :D can't wait to see picture!!! :D

i haven't seen SPN yet. will try to remember to check in once i have ;)

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Try hon!